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/liberty/ - Liberty

Non-authoritarian Discussion of Politics, Society, News, and the Human Condition (Fun Allowed)
Winner of the 62rd Attention-Hungry Games
/eris/ - Wherein Is Explained Absolutely Everything Worth Knowing About Absolutely Anything.

November 2018 - 8chan Transparency Report
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WARNING! Free Speech Zone - all local trashcans will be targeted for destruction by Antifa.

File: 77bed78106a1be0⋯.png (936.66 KB, 1024x603, 1024:603, ClipboardImage.png)

 No.93237

How do we surpass the Chinese?

 No.93238

They can surpass themselves quite well. Using people as renewable breeding natural resource won't do them much good in the long run.


 No.93240

File: a7045ef391f5125⋯.png (94.14 KB, 850x400, 17:8, ClipboardImage.png)

>>93238

>in the long run


 No.93241

>>93240

Their long run is already shortening, though.


 No.93250

>>93237

we meaning who?


 No.93251

>how do we surpass an economy built on subsidizing unproductive capital that falsifies its growth data

Do nothing and wait. Doing nothing isn't one of the federal government's strong suits, though.


 No.93252

>>93250

Free-marketers and libertarians.


 No.93257

You cant

Chinese Marxist-Leninist State-Capitalism is slowly outperforming the NeoLiberal west in all facets of growth


 No.93260

File: 08136233a92ead4⋯.png (1010.18 KB, 1400x5552, 175:694, filthy_chinese.png)

>>93257

>can't create a single original project, all cheap copies of Western designs

>only prosperity is in free economic zones

>can only function by selling to rich Westerners

Sure thing bud.


 No.93261

File: 2727552ae6cc0dd⋯.jpg (60.64 KB, 402x580, 201:290, 111111111.jpg)

>>93260

>>can't create a single original project, all cheap copies of Western designs

"Why are you using a Shovel when shovels were invented under Feudalism?" Tier Arguements

there is no magic Rulebook saying you cant use other peoples design (Except for Copyright but /liberty/ has already stated concensus that its a spook)

>>only prosperity is in free economic zones

This dosent disprove what ive said

And no in a general sense the standard of living of China has been Rising Drasticaly Comparative to the rest of the third world since Deng Xiaoping's Tenure

>>can only function by selling to rich Westerners

The Bird cage Reforms purpose was to allow China to build industry by encouraging foreign investment into the country


 No.93278

>>93252

what about moving to china?


 No.93280

The problem isn't China is doing great, it's that the West is doing abysmally. We need to end Democracy, end welfare, and go back to a meritocratic free market economy. It's because the West has become decadent that it's failing.


 No.93283

>>93280

This. You know shit's fucked when your cunt is being compared to some authoritarian commie shithole.


 No.93284

>>93261

>"Why are you using a Shovel when shovels were invented under Feudalism?"

Poor analogy. Modern shovels are superior to those under feudalism and are not cheap copies.

>This dosent disprove what ive said

It does unless you categorize free economic zones as implementation of state-capitalism.


 No.93296

>>93284

>Poor analogy a Modern shovel is better then an old shovel not a cheap copy

Still not an arguement

Calling something "Cheap" and thus inherently bad or negative in someway is one step above Moralism on th Ladder of Arguements

>How are free economic zones state-capitalism

The "Free Economic Zones" (They are actually called "Special Economic Zones") were mainly put in place to serve as points of encouraging foreign investment and Foreign Trade

This is still healthily under Leninist State-Capitalism as Lenin Himself allowed the USSR's De-Facto ally in the 20s Weimar Germany's Capitlaists to build factories (Both weapons and otherwise) in cities such as Leningrad and Moscow during the 20s and into the early 30s


 No.93297

>>93296

>>93284

Cont.

The idea of a Soecial Economic Zone is also not just a Chinese concept and a Purely State-Capitalist concept

The DPRK implemented a Special Economic zone on its Russo-Chinese Border to help facilitate trade between the three Nations

The obvious difference being that the DPRK Has already achieved a Socialist Mode of Production


 No.93324

If we want MAXIMUM PROGRESS, then that's ez pz as shit

>ban single-unit detached houses, subsidize residential-business mixtures

>Scrap the Property-Sales-Salary Tax Triangle and instate a less aggressive version of Hong Kong's Land Value Tax

>abolish copyright and IP laws


 No.93329

>>93324

> waah all the Chinese do is copy the West and sell bootleg stuff

< hey guys let's abolish IP laws lmao

what a thread


 No.93344

>>93329

You don't need a government to impose bootleg restriction of your pattern. It's funny that despite of having IP law, the Ching Chong still got away with their bootleg. This proves that the government IP law are pretty much useless.


 No.93366

>>93344

Almost like Intellectual Property and Private Property only are considered to exist because of Goverment codification of them stating they exist

Almost like if when the state ceases to exist the concept of intellectual property and Private Property ceases to exist with it


 No.93368

>points out China has nothing original

>delves into tangent about IP laws

You really missed the point, commie. Regardless of IP laws, if there are no original ideas in your economy, that shows there's little in the way of creativity and entrepreneurial spirit. It's indicative of a stagnating economy, not a vibrant one, because it demonstrates that the environment is not one that rewards forward-thinking men, but rather Party stooges and bureaucrats who can only imitate those more successful than they are. Just like the USSR in the last century, chink communism can only survive at all because it can piggyback off the West and its developments.


 No.93376

>>93368

>if there are no original ideas in your economy, that shows there's little in the way of creativity and entrepreneurial spirit. It's indicative of a stagnating economy, not a vibrant one, because it demonstrates that the environment is not one that rewards forward-thinking men,

This matters little in the long Run Since Leninist State-Capitalism simply exists to build the physical means of Production and Technologies essential to building a socialist economy

>but rather Party stooges and bureaucrats who can only imitate those more successful than they are.

Thats not even how the Chinese economy actually functions

China has a full Market economy complete with an entrepreneurial class

>chinese communism can only survive at all because it can piggyback off the West and its developments.

Once again this not some "Epic Takedown" of China but is literally the point of the BirdCage reforms China Undertook in the 80s-90s whose purpose was to encourage western investment in technology and Industry

Claiming China's Technological Progress is nullified because "the West did it first" isnt a valid argument and dosent disprove the great developments chinese society has undertaken under the CCP


 No.93377

>>93368

Cont.

>It's indicative of a stagnating economy,

China's economy still continues to grow at a Much faster rate then most of the developing world

And Much more Importantly the Standard of living of the Chinese people continues to Rise with it


 No.93378

>>93377

We're talking about sustainable growth. "Still" means nothing. The Chinese standard of living was incredibly low to begin with.


 No.93452

>>93366

haha yes this is why in stateless societies people own property as history has shown

kys


 No.93453

>>93377

A fast growth of shit means very little. Consider the fact that the chinks have three times the US's population, yet their GDP is still smaller.


 No.93482

>>93453

Their GDP is smaller because much like the Standard of Living it began at a much lower level then the US's and only really began growing in the 80s

The rate of growth and the Standard of living Increase China has experienced in the last few decades is nothing short of staggering


 No.93483

>>93452

>People own Property

Personal property is not the same as a Private Property

And yes someone can claim ownership of Private property but no state exists to protect that individuals interests


 No.93484

>>93482

It's a Keynesian bubble. The state builds "ghost cities" of unproductive capital that artificially boosts their investment and GDP, but doesn't represent any increase in productivity. Expect a crash in due time.

>>93483

>This retarded meme again

The difference between "personal" and "private" property is pure semantics. I can rent out my unused guest room to a student from abroad, I can run a business from my personal computer, and I can use my car to carpool with coworkers. The demarcation between the two is purely arbitrary because any given property can stop being "personal" and start being "private", or vice versa, at any given time.


 No.93485

>>93484

>On China

Your arguement is basically just the American Grand cope of predicting Muh paper tiger collapse any day now!!!!!

I'm gonna go through the examples you give

>Renting an Unused room out

Land or Residency being rented out for a Profit is Landlordism which Dosent make the room a means of production in itself but allows for the exploitation of the occupant

>Running a Buisness off a Computer

Then it is the Means of Production

Whether it is Self-Employment or Capitalist enterprise is determined by whether you are employing other individuals or not

>Carpooling

Lmao wut?

Carpooling hasn't got anything to do with Production it's just a method of transporting multiple people to save money


 No.93487

>>93485

>>Carpooling

>Lmao wut?

>Carpooling hasn't got anything to do with Production it's just a method of transporting multiple people to save money

what about uber


 No.93488

>>93487

Uber is a Enterprise where an individual is payed to drive another around while the owner of the enterprise takes a sliver of the amount payed as profit

This is different then a Taxi even as in some countries such as Cuba Taxi's are simply a form of Self employment


 No.93494

>>93485

>Your arguement is basically just the American Grand cope of predicting Muh paper tiger collapse any day now!!!!!

Economical crisis and inflation is a myth! You just have to try harder and communism will be built, i promise, just throw more bodies at it. You're literally a parasitic bacteria in the body of humanity.

>Land or Residency being rented out for a Profit is Landlordism which Dosent make the room a means of production in itself but allows for the exploitation of the occupant

Muh snowflake means of production. Nobody cares, anything can be used or converted into capital goods and there's nothing you can do about it. Your 'personal property" is only possible via state control of the people and works by limiting their financial options intervening between themunlike actual property and could limit anything else just as well. There's no logical difference between prohibition of renting and prohibition of using red colors.

You've got nothing beyond muh exploitation and the only way you can defend it is by repeating the same claims over and over in circles until anyone who debates you goes away.

Ignore the board shitting leftist faggot, filter the leftist faggot, don't respond to leftist faggot, you'll get nothing but waste your time and disappointment from looking at this deceitful mindless drone.


 No.93503

>>93494

>Ignore the board shitting leftist faggot, filter the leftist faggot, don't respond to leftist faggot, you'll get nothing but waste your time and disappointment from looking at this deceitful mindless drone

This. I don't understand why the fuck you keep entertaining him.


 No.93510

>>93503

This is a slow-ass board, anon, humoring lefty tardposting with replies is most of the activity we get. We're just about all anarchists here, so there aren't many anarchy/minarchy discussions. The only points of contention we have to discuss are free banking and IP/copyright. I'd actually like to see more of the former, but we only have 1-2 free bankers on here that I've seen, and banks don't seem to be interesting to hold the attention of more than a couple posters.


 No.93511

File: 7d6a82acdb510b6⋯.png (9.39 KB, 420x420, 1:1, 7d6a82acdb510b6123beecb1e2….png)

>>93510

Ok, so you aren't the ones entertaining him, he's the one entertaining you.


 No.93520

>>93511

Actually, since we're both expending approximately the same amount of effort to type these posts, the LVT says all of our posts have the same value, therefore it's impossible for one of us to exploit profit from the other by being entertained :^).


 No.93604

>>93494

>just throw more bodies at it. You're literally a parasitic bacteria in the body of humanity

Once again no arguements simply Moralism and a redifined version of the "Muh 100 inflated numbers bullshit"

Debate between economic and societal models is not a Moral one but one of Utilatarianism


 No.93606

>>93494

Cont.

>Personal Property only exists because of the state controlling people

No. That is only in the case of Private Property

You can still live in YOUR home and use YOUR toothbrush and drive YOUR car even if the state ceases to exist


 No.93607

In other news interesting news out of China they have begun to assist fellow Socialist-Aligned states such as Venezuela develop State Databases to combat Parasatism or Fraud

https://mobile.abc.net.au/news/2018-11-16/chinese-tech-giant-zte-helps-venezuela-develop-fatherland-card/10503736?pfmredir=sm


 No.93609

File: 285476fe9c82508⋯.jpg (49.51 KB, 500x500, 1:1, 9b62e73b7ffe6169965745dbf7….jpg)

>>93604

>Muh 100 inflated numbers bullsh

>Economic crisis is impossible, goy, it's all capitalist controversy to drive people away from perfect communism!

>Debate between economic and societal models is not a Moral one but one of Utilatarianism

If only leftist brain knew that not only utilitarianism is a moralistic position but the most faggy and jewish of all of them. No surprise that it would me adopted by the most vocal and noisy moralfags of all - leftists.

>>93606

>You can still live in YOUR home and use YOUR toothbrush and drive YOUR car even if the state ceases to exist

>Yet you cannot drive someone else on your car for a compensation or let someone live in your house for a fee.

This is your mind on leftism.

>>93607

>to combat Parasatism or Fraud

AHAHAHAHA


 No.93611

>>93609

When I speak of Utility I don't mean so in religious terms or Moral terms but more in its Material Utility and its ability to progress society

>Yet you cannot drive someone else on your car for a compensation

That's actually completely fine

>Or let someone live in your house for a fee

Landlordism

Without the state to enforce Landlordism the Landlord-Rentor relationship would already have broken down

>AHAHAHAHA

Their is literally no contradiction in a socialist society attempting to limit Parasitism and Corruption


 No.93614

>>93606

>No. That is only in the case of Private Property

>You can still live in YOUR home and use YOUR toothbrush and drive YOUR car even if the state ceases to exist

>you can't make money from your car or your hose if the state ceases to exist


 No.93616

>>93614

We'll Landlordism would be almost simply logistically impossible to keep enforced without the state

One could logically produce profit using their car as a Taxi on a small scale but….

A. Large hire car firms like Uber and the like would be impossible

B. Without a state to codify the singular currency meant to be used within a territory a very cash based Buisness like Taxi driving would become difficult


 No.93624

>>93611

>When I speak of Utility I don't mean so in religious terms or Moral terms but more in its Material Utility and its ability to progress society

>Our moralism is not moralism because we'll call it "material".

>That's actually completely fine

HOW DARE YOU !1!!!!11 OPPRESSUN!!1!

>Their is literally no contradiction in a socialist society attempting to limit Parasitism and Corruption

>An embodiment of parasitism and corruption fighting against corruption.

Go on, i haven't had such a good laugh in a long time.

>>93616

>We'll Landlordism would be almost simply logistically impossible to keep enforced without the state

>Keeping a house is possible but renting a house immediately requires a state.

Communism really eats your brain, huh.

>One could logically produce profit using their car as a Taxi on a small scale

So basically you already lost an argumant and now only try to make a mess. Oh wait, it was your only purpose from the very beginning.

>Large hire car firms like Uber and the like would be impossible

Baseless claim, the only one you are capable of.

>Without a state to codify the singular currency meant to be used within a territory a very cash based Buisness like Taxi driving would become difficult

You still don't get what money is, brainlet? He'll get paid in gold, if anything, without a state.


 No.93651

>>93280

>we need to go back to the mythical thing that never existed.

you do know the word meritocracy was coined ironically don't you?


 No.93656

>>93624

>HOW DARE YOU !1!!!!11 OPPRESSUN!!1!

Except Literally No Oppression of Exploitation is occurring between you and someone else in this exchange

>Go on, i haven't had such a good laugh in a long time.

Capitalism in the Long Term will cause more Parasatism and Corruption then a Socialist Model because of Capitalist dominance over democratic institutions and the Need for a Social Welfare program being implemented to prevent Social-Revolution

The Need for Unemployment subsidies and also Taxes in socialist states is / was effectively Minimal compared to capitalist ones

>So basically you already lost an argumant and now only try to make a mess. Oh wait, it was your only purpose from the very beginning.

>Baseless claim, the only one you are capable of.

Amazing Literally no arguements

>You still don't get what money is, brainlet? He'll get paid in gold, if anything, without a state.

>He'll get paid in gold

<Imagine actually being this delusional

Golds very Value comes from its (Artificial) Scarcity the idea that gold would become commonplace enough in a stateless territory as for it to warrant being used as a direct of Currency is Ridiculous


 No.93665

File: e3d2c56544c5d44⋯.png (94.56 KB, 768x586, 384:293, ClipboardImage.png)

What's with /pol/ and /tv/ being teh same board?


 No.93678

>>93656

>Except Literally No Oppression of Exploitation is occurring between you and someone else in this exchange

Except it literally is a service for a payment using a previously acquired capital good via investment that is a car. You can't shoehorn this example into your shitty "theory" and it's the only reason you don't accept it despite it being virtually identical.

>Capitalism in the Long Term will cause more Parasatism and Corruption

AHAHAHHAHA

>The Need for Unemployment subsidies and also Taxes in socialist states is / was effectively Minimal compared to capitalist ones

>Police state spending is not subsidies.

Tell me more, omegatard.

>Amazing Literally no arguements

Amazing an accurate description.

>Golds very Value comes from its (Artificial) Scarcity

So scarcity is not real and is a capitalist conspiracy to prevent workers from just creating gold out of thin air, got it.

>gold would become commonplace enough in a stateless territory as for it to warrant being used as a direct of Currency is Ridiculous

Still don't get what a currency is and how something becomes one. I don't eveen have to call you a brainlet here, you are proving it yourself a lot better than i could ever have.


 No.94120

File: 672bfecc0e79a63⋯.png (517.74 KB, 1287x756, 143:84, Chinese Reaganomics ; Reag….png)

We don't, they have Chinese Reaganomics on their side; nothing can surpass American-style mercantilist capitalism so capably wielded as it has been by the ruling party of China


 No.94127

File: 795cc56514f2e98⋯.jpg (29.31 KB, 780x438, 130:73, 181109173355-20181109-chin….jpg)

>This isn't communism anymore t. communists


 No.94154

>>93665

You are so mad, it's unbelievable. You posted the same gay shit on like fifteen boards, including CYOA of all places. Why are you so upset that people are more white than you?


 No.94220

File: 257622fe15ea492⋯.png (338.07 KB, 1680x1489, 1680:1489, IMG_0012.PNG)

>>94120

Updated with more context on China's economic liberalization after /trannyfellatiopol/ tried to deny it (and then permabanned me and told me to go back to >>>/4chon/ lmoa)


 No.94225

>>94220

China is not capitalist, please stop making these cringeworthy pictures because it's obvious you are a dumb American who has no idea what he's talking about. China is "capitalist" towards foreign nations only through free trade agreements that only effect port cities. The mainland is still very much Communist. I'm only telling you this because I know your retarded ass is going to backpedal on China's capitalist status as soon as their bubble of an economy finally goes down in flames.


 No.94238

>>93678

>Except it literally is a service for a payment using a previously acquired capital good via investment that is a car

the profit of no-one else but the cab owner forms the enterprises profits

no one is being payed Wage / Salery / Piece work pay to work for him

>AHAHAHHAHA

Still not an argument

Unemployment and welfare abuse is minimal in socialist states because of the enforced guarantee of jobs and the i-legalization of unemployment

>Tell me more, omegatard.

>Amazing an accurate description.

Make an arguement anytime

>So scarcity is not real and is a capitalist conspiracy to prevent workers from just creating gold out of thin air, got it.

Literally never said that.

I said that in the case of Gold the scarce nature of it is mainly artificial


 No.94239

>>94220

>>94120

>>94127

>Trading with other countries having Industry a improving HDI and having debt makes a nation inherently capitalist

Im not even arguing that China's economy is Socialist (It is State-Capitalist) but to claim these things as inherent Markers of capitalism is dishonest as i can point you to all of these things occuring in socialist states aswell


 No.94241

File: 311d51182e0b727⋯.png (151.18 KB, 1546x1142, 773:571, ClipboardImage.png)

>>93237

To be honest, censorship is what will do the Chinese in. Because no matter how profitable it is to work with them, they'll keep on becoming irrationally afraid of any little information getting out of their control that they'll create a sterile society, both physically and mentally, much like all the other Communist nations of the world.

North Korea is the actual chad of the two nations, because the Kims realized that even if they could never compete with their Chinese overlords, they just didn't need to. They just made their people so miserable that any handout is seen as a blessing, whereas the Chinese needed to become an USSR 2.0 which lead to the necessity of competing with other nations on more than just the military level.

Back on topic, isolating China isn't the best way to destroy it, as much as:

1) Waiting for their male population to have no means of reproduction other than importing negroes from Africa and

2) Making China fractured by empowering local minorities and going full Moldova by creating fake nationalities and identities that impoverished Chinks not coming from the coastal regions will be quick to adopt. Basically, if a bigger nation wasn't a puppet of the (((usual suspects))), or if we as a group had slightly more presence, it would be as simple as dropping PDFs detailing of, like, Yunnan being actually the true descendants of the Qing Dynasty's rule and that the Communist party purged all of their intellectuals and destroyed "real historical landmarks" to make themselves look better. It would get supported immensely from the likes of India.


 No.94262

File: 92990c01855dc0f⋯.png (127.82 KB, 1081x846, 23:18, nazsperg.png)

>>94220

>/pol/ embraces free speech

>bans logical contradictions of their propagada

>echohamber of hate filled monsters

>even more vitriol, now with less citations

>doubles down IRL

>Get imprisoned and blacklisted IRL for irrational violence & hatred against western civilization.

>becomes part of a criminal gang

>hates freedom and wealth anyways.

>free speech

>free speech

Free speech

r

e

e

s

p

e

e

c

h


 No.94331

>>94239

wow

has socialism ever been tried?


 No.94407

>>94241

I only agree on the first paragraph, but it can't overstated how fucked China is in the long-term.

Xi Jinping has effectively become Mao 2.0, the water/air quality has become almost unlivable, and education in rural areas is failing terribly. They overstated their GDP by ~30% for 2016, and now they are building labor camps for Uyghur's hoping to increase their actual economic output. Performing internet searches on how to leave the country negatively impacts your social credit score, and that score is already used to determine if people can get loans or houses. They almost immediately broke the suggested moratorium on using crispr in humans in late 2015, and it has become clear that the intend to make its use wide-spread as early as possible. (Keep in mind that a large motivation for the moratorium is that genetic flaws generally get expressed as cancer, and crispr currently makes a huge number of off-target edits).

The future Chinese humanitarian crisis is going to make the migrant crisis look like a joke.


 No.94408

>>93237

Fun Fact: the chinese word for America is 美国 (meiguo) which literally means "beautiful country"

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rkG3AESrSNM


 No.94413

File: fc65153c1afc51f⋯.png (405.84 KB, 2324x1489, 2324:1489, Chinese Reaganomics 2.0.png)

>>94262

Nice non-sequitur dummy; like all white men of good moral character I post on >>>/4chon/ for serious political discussion

I only post on /leftypol/ or /pol/ when I feel like getting banned for no reason lmoa

>>94225

>butthurt-Maoist.txt


 No.94685

>>94413

The extreme right and extreme left are mirrors parodies of each other. Offensive, autistic, fanciful ideologies, dismissive of the economic and social ramifications of their theories, clueless of their practical implementation, and blame Republicans for their lack of vagina access.

So of course they get dropped from web hosting server farms and told to git when squatting on social media in their digital occupy wall street.

If your definition of No Good Scotsman fallacy includes egotistical lolbertarian homosexual tripfags from 6-8 fucking years ago of losers that never moved on with their lives, then I suppose you're in good company. The original of >>>/4chon/ died because STI refused to ban the cancer that killed traffic to the fatherland.


 No.94686

>>94413

Great infographic

Nevertheless Freezespeach is how the original >>>/4chon/ died in dramatic tripfag spammers who never paid a cent in hosting donations.




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